0:00:10.5 Jeffrey Bell: Welcome to an episode of Just Questions Podcast, where we ask people with the experience and the know-how. Welcome everyone to another edition of Just Questions, where we ask those in the know, the questions that you always wanted answered. Today we interview Reverend Robert Martin, a minister from Ohio. And we get down to those important questions you were afraid to ask. At what moment did you realize you were called to ministry and why, as a pastor or a leader?

0:00:41.8 Reverend Robert Martin: So I was in college, it was my sophomore year, and the school that I went to required us to take a religion class. I was not thinking about becoming a pastor at all. No one in my family was ever a pastor, but I took the religion class, I remember it was an Old Testament class. I really liked it, so I took another one, and then I took another one. And by the end of my sophomore year, the religion professor said to me, "Why are you taking all these classes?" And I said, "I have no idea." And he said, "Well, Have you ever thought about becoming a minister?" And I said, "No." And he said, "Well, why don't you think about it?" So I went home that summer and I thought about it, and then I went and talked to my own pastor at the Presbyterian Church where I grew up. And he said, "Well, I was waiting for you to figure out what you wanted to do because," he said, "I've always thought you would be a good pastor." And I said, "Well, nobody ever told me." And so I went back to school that junior year, took more religion and philosophy classes, ended up getting a degree in religion and philosophy.

0:01:52.6 RM: So it wasn't like some people sort of a bolt out of the blue, where you can point to a day and time and say, "Here's when I felt the call of God." It was more a gradual revelation, if you will, of this is what I want to do. And sure enough, I think they were right 'cause I've loved every minute of it.

0:02:13.5 JB: How would you define ministry or leadership?

0:02:19.1 RM: So I think ministry is really just connecting with people. It's connecting them, their story, their life with God's story, and what I think God wants for us. So that's sort of my own definition of ministry. And it happens in a variety of ways. I think traditionally, it's happened through what we call the church. A community gathered together, again, connecting their stories to God's story and each other's story. And then leadership, I think in the church specifically is about, I say two words, authenticity and integrity. Truly believing what you say and how you live, and then asking others to do the same. And I think when you do that, if you're open to listening, to hearing people's stories, struggles, joys, sorrows, and then connecting that to the overarching story of God. And for us, Christians, God through Jesus Christ. I think that comes through then as leadership.

0:03:28.1 JB: What Christian leaders or pastors do you read, listen to or follow?

0:03:34.4 RM: So I have a number of folks that I listen to or follow. Some of the older ones that I've come to like... Of course, being a Presbyterian and Reformed are theologians, like Karl Barth, the Niebuhr brothers, Richard and Reinhold Niebuhr. More recently, I would say Walter Brueggemann, and Frederick Buechner are two of the ones I follow most closely now, mainly because of what they say about... I think folks who have been either oppressed or overlooked, especially Walter Brueggemann. He deals a lot with poverty, the idea of scarcity versus abundance. And so these are things that seem to resonate with me and the ministry that I've had both in urban settings and now in rural Appalachia, where we see a lot of poverty.

0:04:36.1 JB: Do you have a favorite theologian and why?

0:04:39.0 RM: I would say at this point, it's probably Walter Brueggemann. And again, because he connects so closely with folks who have either been under-served or overlooked. He's an Old Testament scholar and really combines the Old Testament prophets, in fact, he has a book called The Prophetic Imagination, in which he talks about the eighth century prophets, Micah, Hosea, Amos, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and links it to modern day problems of how we view the poor or how we think about caring for one another. And that really, I think, has inspired me and challenged me down through the years of my ministry.

0:05:32.4 JB: Here at Just Question Podcast we ask the listeners to send in questions for guests that they need to know. If we get enough suggested questions, we will re-interview our guest for a future show. If you want to be interviewed, please send us an email request with the story about your life, our email address is just.questions2021@gmail.com. Thank you. And we're back to our podcast. Can you share an example of how you have handled a tragic situation that has directly or indirectly affected members of your congregation?

0:06:08.9 RM: There are numerous ones. A couple stand out. And I'll give you the first one I ever dealt with. So I'm a fresh new pastor in a church. I had been ordained only about two months. I had gone to seminary, came out, started serving a church, and a family in the church were expecting twins. And I was called to the hospital, the wife was in delivery, and unfortunately both twins ended up dying. And the family then asked me to do the funeral. I had a child of my own who was only about five-years-old at the time. And for some reason it was almost too much, but I managed to get through it. And in those situations, what I learned was, listening is the most important thing. Sometimes you can just sit and cry with somebody, and that was enough. I didn't have any profound words of wisdom of why those children died. Sometimes you'll hear cliches, you know, God needed another angel or something like that. In those moments of profound grief and sorrow, I think those words fall flat. And so sometimes all you can do is say, "I'm here with you in the midst of your pain and sorrow." And God is here with you in the midst of your pain and sorrow. So that was sort of my first... I'd say baptism by fire.

0:07:46.4 RM: The second was, I was serving a church not too far from New York City. We had a number of members that worked in the city. And of course, I was a pastor at this church on 9/11. And a number of our members worked in and around the World Trade Center. And I remember their spouses coming to the church and us praying that they were all right. And thankfully, all the members of the church that I served were fine. For one reason or another, they either got out or they were late to work that day, or they had another appointment in work. Were not at a place in the building where they would have been lost had they shown up for work that day on time. So for whatever reason, we were spared, not our area, certainly there was quite a bit of loss of life around us. But I remember sitting with them again that night, just listening, praying and just being with them.

0:08:53.3 JB: Explain a time when you have felt pushed beyond your capacities as a leader and how you can overcome this difficulty?

0:09:00.8 RM: Well, I think most pastors get pushed beyond their limits daily. There are so many things, you have to be a counselor, you have to be an administrator, you have to be a theologian, you have to be a comforter. People kind of expect a lot out of a pastor. But I think whenever I felt beyond my limits, the one thing I've appreciated about the church I serve is we have this sort of collegial model. So that I know that if I say to somebody, "I really need your help on X, Y, or Z," because they've got more expertise in it, whether it's thinking about how to build our website or what kind of music or other things that I may not be as familiar with. The collegiality is what I've really appreciated. And just a lot of prayer, prayer that I might have the wisdom to make the right decision, or at least be able to find the right people to make the right decision.

0:10:07.6 JB: What is a God story that you can tell in order to encourage others?

0:10:13.5 RM: Oh, there are so many. I think one of the stories... And it occurs over and over again. And it happens when people are facing the ultimate challenge, which is they know they're dying, and they face it with such courage and humour and a sharing of their own life and telling those that they're leaving behind that it's all right. I think for me, those are the God moments in which whatever they're facing, as difficult as things are, they're facing it with a sense of something beyond this life that will carry them into the next. And it's that kind of fierce hope that I see in so many people that I've held their hands as they've died in a hospital room or even at home. And the peace that they have. I like to call it being comfortable in their own skin. That they're glad of who they are and what they've done in their life, and they feel loved and they have loved. And it's sort of a privilege to be with those folks during that time.

0:11:41.4 JB: Share an example of how you can handle someone on your team or in the congregation not living according to Biblical principles?

0:11:49.7 RM: Well, that would probably be everybody, including myself. We all struggle. Life's not easy, and I think what I try to do is to talk to people about the choices we make. I remember... I'll just give one example. A middle-aged man who came to me and said that he wanted to end his marriage because there was a younger woman that he had fallen in love with, and he didn't think he was in love with his wife anymore. And we talked for quite a while, and then finally I looked at him and I said, "Would you wash her windows?" And he said, "What?" And I said, "You know, would you wash her windows? Would you do the dishes? Would you vacuum? Would you... " And he gave me this sort of puzzled look. And I said, "You know, you're in love with the idea of being in love with this younger woman, because it's exciting and it's new, and it's something different." But with your wife, you've built a life, and you have a routine, and you have these things that you do day in and day out. And maybe watching the kids and you think it's boring, but it's life. It's what we've been given.

0:13:13.2 RM: Can you learn to enjoy those things, because I guarantee you, if you leave your wife and you go with this woman, eventually you're going to have to wash her windows and do the vacuuming, and do all the other things you're doing now. So what is it that you're in love with? What is it you think you're missing? And no one had ever asked him that, he said. And I'm happy to say he stayed married. They worked through their problems. Now, that doesn't happen all the time. But it's one of those situations in which sometimes I think as a person of faith, if you can think outside the box, sometimes things happen.

0:13:54.4 JB: How do you describe your approach to reflecting the love of Christ to people who are not accustomed to coming to church services and have not decided to do so?

0:14:04.1 RM: So one of the ways... I go to a coffee shop every morning, and I sit in the same spot, and I'm always amazed how people will come up and just start chatting with me. Or they'll sit down on a couch across from me. This is all pre-COVID. And we would just strike up a conversation. And of course, inevitably it comes over, "What do you do for a living?" And I say, "Well, I'm a pastor at the Presbyterian Church here in town." And I either get one of two reactions, "Oh, that's nice." And then they wanna switch topics right away. Or they'll start asking me questions. My approach has always been one of, let people know what you're doing in terms of mission and how we worship, education, 'cause I know that's important for some families. What do you have for our children? A church can't be all things to all people, but I think we can show the love of Christ through our way of living out Christ's great commission. How are you caring for the hungry? How are you clothing folks? How are you providing for basic necessities? What is it that you try to do in terms of living out the great commission?

0:15:31.4 RM: And so this is what I try to tell people, even those who say, "I'm not really interested in institutionalized religion." And I say, "Well, I'm not either." But I am interested in how a group of people can gather together and do far more as a group than we can as simply individuals, say, writing checks to the local food pantry or the Red Cross, or name any other organization that does great work. It's easy to write a check, we can sort of stay aloof and back, but when you're actually making a meal for somebody or you're providing clothing or backpacks for children that are going to school, or you're providing education for people who may be interested in, what are the stories in the Bible that my children might need to know and would make a difference in their own lives? So these are the things I try to do. Living by example. I've often found that just preaching at people or making them feel guilty somehow is not a great approach.

0:16:37.7 JB: Can you tell me a little bit about your own relationship with the Lord and your personal devotion time?

0:16:43.5 RM: I'll start with personal devotion time. So I get up really early in the morning. I'm a five o'clock riser. And I have a couple of people I mentioned earlier, Frederick Buechner, one of the writers that I really like. And he's got a little book called 365 Devotions. And it's basically one for every day. And it's mostly taken from his writings. And then there are some poets, I would call them religious poets that I really like, Denise Levertov and Wendell Berry. And I have a number of their collections. So I try to take time in the morning to read Scripture, read poetry, read the writings of Frederick Buechner. And when I'm doing that, I try to think about members of the church, that I know that might be undergoing tests that day in a hospital, or are in the hospital or nursing homes. People who might be struggling with a job or family issues. I try to lift them up in prayer. So that's sort of my morning routine before I start the day. I often tell people it's like putting on a pair of glasses, you know, we see the world one way without our glasses, and then you put the glasses on and things come into focus and you see things a little clearer. And I think that's what the devotion time for me is, is to see the world a little clearer.

0:18:03.9 RM: And I would say my relationship with God is... I'm somebody... There was a book that came out years ago called, Faith, Seeking Understanding. And I guess, I have faith in God and in God's son, Jesus Christ. I have faith that God is ever-present. And that, is always challenging me and inspiring me and comforting me when I need that. But I also struggle like anybody else. I sometimes have doubts and I sometimes fear and worry, and all the other things that we do. So in the midst of that, I always fall back to the sort of, here I am, Lord, warts and all. And I just want to be able to serve you as best I can.

0:18:54.7 JB: How do you balance the needs of your family and self with those of the congregation?

0:19:00.8 RM: Oooh, that's a toughie. I think for most pastors, we feel like... I don't wanna say we. At least I feel like my family ends up losing out more than anything. Only because I work most of the day, and then I have a lot of night meetings, different boards, different committees that meet. Early on in my ministry, I spent a lot of time at the church and probably not enough time with my family. Later in life, I've been able to balance it a little more. But as a pastor, you're pretty much on call 24 hours a day. I've gotten calls at three or four in the morning, to come to the hospital, my husband has just died, or my wife or my mom or dad just passed away. And so we're often called out at night. And so I think to be an effective pastor, you have to be able to balance all that. Even God rested on the seventh day. There was the Sabbath. And I've learned to appreciate that as part of my own ministry. To take time not only for myself, but more time for my family as well.

0:20:21.9 JB: Let's do some not so heavy questions.

0:20:24.0 RM: Okay.

0:20:25.9 JB: What do pastors do during the week?

0:20:27.8 RM: Oh my gosh. Well, a typical week would be... I teach a class on Tuesday, so normally... I'll start with Monday. Monday I'm preparing for that class. I send out materials that will be used on the Tuesday class, much like a professor would, here's a particular passage we're gonna study, here's my notes on that passage. My translation... As a Presbyterian, you have to take Hebrew and Greek, and so I will try to provide a word study, either if it's Old Testament Hebrew or in the New Testament Greek words, that might be important to the passage. Then I try to bring in how this might affect us in our everyday life. So that's a typical Monday. Then I have a class on Tuesday. I try to split up my day into three different sections, morning, afternoon and evening, and work two of them. A lot of it is in sermon preparation, pastoral calls, dealing with people that have needs. Either we need a hotel room, we need food, we need help with the electric bill, I can't tell you how many calls a day I get from people that just need the basic necessities who may be struggling. So a lot of my time is spent, I would say a third of it in worship and sermon preparation, a third of it in pastoral care and counseling, and a third of it in administration.

0:21:56.8 JB: How much time does it take to prepare a sermon?

0:22:00.6 RM: So a good rule of thumb, I think, is about half an hour to an hour for every minute you preach, now that sounds like a lot. If you're talking about a 20-minute sermon, you're talking about 20 hours. But you spread that out over time. So I normally take about four weeks to prepare a sermon. So I'll do what's called an exegesis first. I'm what's called a lectionary preacher. The lectionary is a series of four readings that are available every week. There's an Old Testament reading, or they sometimes call it a first reading of a Psalm. A gospel reading, and then one of Paul's letters or an epistle reading. So I'll normally do that.

0:22:44.2 JB: How much do pastors get paid?

0:22:46.4 RM: Well, in our denomination, it depends kind of where you live. I know pastors in New York City, San Francisco, Washington DC, that make six figures. But it costs six figures to really have a living wage in those areas. If you're in a very rural place, let's say rural Nebraska, somewhere, maybe you're making what would be considered a living wage there. Where I am, given my years of experience and our denomination provides for retirement and healthcare, and plus my salary, and I get what's called a housing allowance. So I think I make around 80,000 a year, but again, that's again, with my experience and everything else.

0:23:29.3 JB: What do pastors usually talk about when they get together?

0:23:32.9 RM: So we talk about the same things everybody else does, you know, family, hobbies, vacation plans, children, parents, the food we like. Contrary to popular belief we don't talk about our church members with one another. And sometimes we... I'm talking about socially, here, Pastors, we gather to do study together and other things, so we'll talk about Scripture, we'll talk about what we're preaching about, or a series, we might be doing at the church or some new program we're trying. So it's a whole variety of things.

0:24:11.6 JB: What's the hardest part about pastoral?

0:24:16.4 RM: I think one of the hardest things about pastoral ministry is you carry around so much with you as a pastor. You know people's pain and struggles. You empathize with people a great deal. You hope for the best as you sit with families waiting for news of a loved one, whether they're gonna live or die. And you carry that with you. And I think you carry your failures, your successes. It's always interesting, on a Sunday morning, 50 people could come up to me and say they really enjoyed my sermon. And if one person says they didn't like it at all, I'll carry that with me for a while versus the 50. So it's often difficult.

0:25:03.8 JB: What can church members do to encourage the pastor?

0:25:08.4 RM: I tell people all the time, just pray for your pastor. If they ask for help, if you can give it to them, do so if you can, and if you can't just tell them. Plus, I'm always a firm believer in honest criticism. If I haven't done something or if you think I should be doing something else as a pastor, I'm open to hearing that. So I think prayer and just being honest and straightforward with your pastor on what you really think.

0:25:43.1 JB: One last question.

0:25:44.9 RM: Okay.

0:25:45.3 JB: Do you have hobbies?

0:25:46.3 RM: I do. I have a lot of hobbies. Recently, I've been doing triathlons. And so I've been running and biking and swimming quite a bit. And that seems to be something that I've enjoyed here recently. But I've done, heck, I've golfed, I've done all sorts of things. But yeah, recently it's more of the triathlons.

0:26:08.5 JB: This has been a Vorlago Audio Production, produced by Kamelia Sacks and Jeffrey Bell.